Merkur xr4ti problems [Archive] - CICENetwork

mk1vwguy

11-23-2009, 08:22 PM

Hey guys I jus picked up a merkur xr4ti and haven some problems. The car runs good till u hit WOT and at about 4500rpm it kinda falls on its face. The car has sci msd box, blaster coil ,cam, 3" exhaust. Chipped ecu, upgrade fuel pump, 35lbs injectors, t3t4 turbo, 18psi, think that's all. But I should have enough fuel and spark. The car is mean till 4500 then kinda backfires and sputters and knocking. Ill check to see if it has knock sensor hooked up or not. I'm goin to try regapping plugs and check what fuel pressure is at idle. its my first turbo ford so jus seeing if anyone had any ideas. Ill be working in it all day tomorrow.

jvb6806

11-23-2009, 08:32 PM

sounds like a fuel issue to me. those injectors seem a little small for the turbo. i would check the duty cycles (if you can) and see where they are at.

mk1vwguy

11-23-2009, 08:43 PM

Ok ill check that out. Lot of guys run the brown top svo injectors that I got and work ok. Ill take them out and see how there flowing. Why would it backfire tho? Isn't tht extra gas in cylinders? I'm going over whole car tom and seeing what is all hooked up and what's not. And also I think head is cracked or something cause I took it out for 30 Mins and it started smoking bad whitish color. And fired it up today and nothing. Kinda weird. Its suppose to have a copper head gasket and was just put on 1000 mile ago I guess. I knew it was a project so not to worried about it. I'm leaning towards cracked head and fire or timing issue. It has a ford motor sport cam and adjustable cam gear. Jus no idle where to set them.

Chefasaurus

11-23-2009, 09:06 PM

Sounds like you need to play with the timing a bit, and retard it under full boost.

mk1vwguy

11-23-2009, 09:21 PM

The cam gear or ignition timing? The guy said I need the cam advanced 9d and retard crank 6 degree. How do u retard it under boost?

jvb6806

11-23-2009, 09:27 PM

DSM's max out 450cc injectors with a 14b.... you are running around a 360cc injector on a much larger turbo. FWD 2G's can max out the 390's on a T25 and those are TINY turbos (2G AWD's max out 450's as well in the T25).

that seems small to me.

your ignition timing should be part of your tune. you can check base timing and see where that is at. when dealing with someone else's project i would start from the beginning. and if your car has a knock sensor it should pull more timing on it's own if you are knocking.

do you have a datalogger or a laptop with your fuel/timing maps?

check your fuel pressure and duty cycle and if you are over 90% DC get some 650's (or larger) and go from there.

needs more of these.
http://www.rceng.com/images/rc/PL4-0750D_M.JPG
http://www.rceng.com/Peak-Hold-Injector-PL4-0750D-Denso-style-top-P55C5.aspx

if you are going to buy new plugs get some NGK coppers that are one heat range cooler than stock and maybe even gap them a little short.

Chefasaurus

11-23-2009, 09:28 PM

mk1vwguy

11-23-2009, 10:02 PM

Thnks ill check that stuff out. I have a laptop but no program to see whatt air/fuel ratio I'm running. Pretty sure it has a knock sensor ill double check. It was runnin lean as sh#t at WOT and I adjusted FPR and seems to be richer now but all I have is a narrow band o2. I need a WB to fine tune right?

andersonpt85

11-23-2009, 10:10 PM

Ignition timing. You'd have to get into the ECU program to tinker with it. Personally, I openly admit that tuning with fuel injection is an art that I simply don't possess. However, there's a lot of people on the board with lots of tuning experience with a variety of different ECU's.

Distributor.

A lot of people will disconnect the knock sensor due to their uber-sensitivity on the t2.3 - feels like 15hp on the butt dyno when its disconnected.

Also I was running 95% injector duty cycle with 42's, t3t4, manifold, and ranger cam in my old t-bird.

Turn down the boost, steal a wideband, and 'tard the timing to 8*-10*. Let me know what you find.

jvb6806

11-23-2009, 10:20 PM

Distributor.

that changes things.

yeah check base timing. what kind of fuel pressure are you running? if you cranked it up super high it may constantly sputter at WOT because of too much fuel but it usually doesn't die and backfire. i think you are supposed to be at like 39psi or something like that?

and yes get a wideband. the narrow band is nothing but i fancy light show for honda owners.

AEM Wideband $225
http://lancershop.com/customer/product.php?productid=751&cat=100&bestseller=Y

or my favorite the innovate is a little more subtle for $229
http://www.frsport.com/Innovate-Motorsports-3796-Wideband-O2-Gauge-with-LC-1-Kit-Red-LEDs_p_12689.html

mk1vwguy

11-23-2009, 10:43 PM

Lol ya NB are pretty useless. Ill def be getting a wide band soon. Car don't really die after I let of jus pops a couple times. The idle does seem a lil high so ill def try tarding the ignition timing some and try it. Ill see what psi if fuel I get at idle. I thought it was around 39. Sounds about right. Jus don't know much about the cam it self. Its an a237 ford motor sport cam with rollor rockers. Idk how to zero everything with it being aftermarket.

mk1vwguy

11-23-2009, 10:58 PM

I have the la2 computer and its chipped by some potter guy. Idk what he did to it or anything.

jvb6806

11-23-2009, 10:59 PM

usually if you put the cam gear in the middle that sets it back to the stock settings and you can adjust in either direction from there. take a look in a service manual or alldata or something and find out what base timing is and rotate your dizzy accordingly and you should be back to factory.

i would find out what is going on with that ECU as well. is it a dude that wrote the chip or is it a company? you may be able to call the company and they will tell you what chip it is. or see if you can pull the ECU and send it in (or just the eeprom if possible) and have them burn one to your specs.

jvb6806

11-23-2009, 11:05 PM

what is wastegate pressure on your car? have you tried running like 8psi and seeing if it cuts out?

andersonpt85

11-23-2009, 11:23 PM

vortk355

11-23-2009, 11:32 PM

Other than proper fuel delivery this engine runs like crap if the ignition system is not in perfect condition. Get new motorcraft spark plugs, cables, cap and rotor. Gap the plugs properly.
Turn down the boost to 15 or 16 until you get it running right. i would say set the timing (with the distributor) to 10* but with the ecu being chipped they might have raised the timing that way so might not be safe. The la2 should of been able to run what you have without a chip unless your not running a vam. you need to find out what they changed with the tune.
That is a big cam, is the head ported at all?

mk1vwguy

11-23-2009, 11:42 PM

I'm running the big tc vam. The intake and exhaust are Ported to the max but idk about the head itself. It has brand new msd wires, and new plugs. But cheap autolites. Ill get some new ones and gap to like .32ish and see how it runs. U know about that cam?

mk1vwguy

11-23-2009, 11:47 PM

the dude I got it from sent it to a guy that does the Xr computers but no idea how to reach him. I know where a la2 computer is I'm going to grab it and go from there till I find more on the ecu. Thanks for. Throwing ideas out guys it will make things a lil easier tom. When I mess with it. I really need to get a timing light. If any ones is bored u should stop by and help tincker with it.

vortk355

11-23-2009, 11:56 PM

Ok so what I am understanding is that you are now using the bigger TB vam witha chipped PK ecu..correct?
Does it have an intercooler?

mk1vwguy

11-24-2009, 12:12 AM

It has the tc top mount on it but I havee a huge fmic for it and new elbow for intake. And the comp is the la2 comp from an auto TB. And I guess chipped by some guy that specializes in the Xr cars.

mk1vwguy

11-24-2009, 12:38 AM

any idea on HP this this should have once tuned right? the guy said it was fast. I got it cheap cause head was making some noise and I changed plugs and fixed boost leak and no noise untill ur at full boost and in like 2-4 gears. Sound like denation or spark knock? Cam and rockers look good

vortk355

11-24-2009, 07:52 AM

http://www.turboford.net/index.shtml

a good place to read up on it.

mk1vwguy

11-24-2009, 12:23 PM

ya i was on there and turborangerforum.com. Welll i think i kinda got it closer. its pulls hard threw first and second and loses tracking in second once boost hits. Its still pouring whitish smoke out tho. i hope its not warped head. I bought good plugs and gapped them to .032 and put it back on stock coil. idk whats up with the msd crap.

Kazz5

11-24-2009, 05:46 PM

IF the ignition seems OK and IF this build/tune USED to run OK, this screams boost leak? Otherwise, spark blowout?

jvb6806

11-24-2009, 06:41 PM

IF the ignition seems OK and IF this build/tune USED to run OK, this screams boost leak? Otherwise, spark blowout?

how does it idle? i assume this is a MAF based system? intake leak under high boost could be the culprit. could make you run rich and sputter.

old school VFAQ article on making a boost leak tester.

http://vfaq.com/mods/ICtester.html

mk1vwguy

11-24-2009, 08:43 PM

i turned disty down till it idles around 750. Its not a maf set up its a old vam air set up off a thunder chicken. i got to strip done and fix head gasket and fix some oil leaks. i will go over every hose for intake leaks. i dont think i have a boost leak cause the intercooler sits on turbo and is next to the TB.

mk1vwguy

11-24-2009, 09:25 PM

would a bad turbo make white smoke pour out? its an oil cooled t3/t4 garret with .60

jvb6806

11-24-2009, 09:38 PM

if it is an oil cooled turbo no. white smoke is water. do you have a block leak tester? if not you can pick one up at NAPA for like $50 bucks.

mk1vwguy

11-24-2009, 09:47 PM

noope dont have one. i was going to do a compression test. can u tell with one of those?

mk1vwguy

11-24-2009, 09:49 PM

a leaky head gasket would put out the spark and cause it to sputter to wouldnt it?

jvb6806

11-24-2009, 09:49 PM

there are a number of reasons you could be loosing compression. it could be though the rings, valve seals, etc. if you have co2 in your coolant there is only one way it got there and the block leak tester will tell you that.

jvb6806

11-24-2009, 09:53 PM

a leaky head gasket would put out the spark and cause it to sputter to wouldnt it?

not really. you would need to have water pouring into the cylinder and blowing out spark on the compression stroke... which is unlikely.

my money is still on fuel issue.

did you try and turn it down to wastegate boost pressure and see if it still sputtered? and check your fuel pressure?

there is a chance it could be a VAM or capacitor in the ECU causing the issues. if the VAM is showing more air than is really going into the engine and it is dumping fuel. or if a capacitor is fried your ECU can freak out and just start dumping fuel. but again you would need to look at your duty cycle or VAM voltage to know.

mk1vwguy

11-24-2009, 10:05 PM

im going to auto zone is the am to pick up a fuel pressure tester. I noticed coolant was low this morning and i left it running and started to refill the res. and i noticed that the rpms dropped a lil and then it started smoking a lil more. Ill check all the fuel and clean out the vam and try to ohm it out if i figure out which wire that would be.

jvb6806

11-25-2009, 07:55 AM

there you go.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y123/jvb84/VAMvoltage.gif

Engines with multi-port injection.

1.6L MFI, 1.9L MFI, 2.3L MFI: Vane Airflow Sensors, measured between second upper terminal (W/BK wire) and ground.

Dan Boles

11-25-2009, 01:13 PM

compression test, boost leak check?

andersonpt85

11-25-2009, 01:59 PM

is that alldata info for the correct 2.3? Ford made four different types of em ya know.

jvb6806

11-25-2009, 02:44 PM

that is for the 89 2.3l mustang

they don't have merkur in there surprisingly enough. if that is the wrong motor let me know and i can look it up for a different vehicle.

mk1vwguy

11-25-2009, 02:51 PM

I did a compression test and it was 100-50-100-100. And this is same motor as thunderbird tc and mustang svo. I have vam from a TC

jvb6806

11-25-2009, 03:12 PM

that isn't good dude. hope it is a head gasket that was installed poorly but that is pretty low compression across the board. rings might be done for.

what is the service limit for that motor?

my client server at school is being a POS so i can't go into alldata to look that stuff up right now. i can try and pull it later tonight or friday.

mk1vwguy

11-25-2009, 03:27 PM

I know kinda sucks. I think its like 130Ish. let me know what ur computer says. Ill look it up when I get back home.

mk1vwguy

11-25-2009, 06:50 PM

i ran fuel test. was a lil low. i turned it up to 39psi at idle plug and 48ish unplugged. is that about right.

jvb6806

11-25-2009, 07:27 PM

yeah that sounds about right for the fuel pressure. it should jump up around 10psi is with the vacuum source.

alldata gives me the same info on a 84 svo so i assume they used the same VAM. so that should be correct.

and they don't show the compression ratio... i am sure you can find it on corral or something.

mk1vwguy

11-25-2009, 10:22 PM

Ya ill check. I was hoping the white smoke was from my turbo cause it has a decent amount of side to side shaft play and its oil and water cooled. But now I'm leaning towards head gasket cause of the #2 piston or a combo of both lol. Oh well ill start striping it tonight or tom and look at head gasket. The dude said he jus replaced it not long ago with a copper gasket but who knows. Hope heads not cracked either. I appreciate all the help u guys been doing. I'm sure once I get gasket fixed ill be asking for tunning problems again lol.

jvb6806

11-26-2009, 12:30 AM

i would spend the 50 and do a block leak test before you tare the head of that thing. if you have a water cooled turbo then the water out the tail pipe could be from that. is the turbo burning oil too?

mk1vwguy

11-26-2009, 02:43 AM

not really sure if the turbo is. i havent really drove car much to fine out. i just know its white smoke, turbo has shaft play (lots) and the #2 piston is 50 less psi then rest. So im thinking head gasket, cracked head, bad turbo seal. what all does the engine block tester do. can it tell if rings are bad. I seen one at harbor frieght when i got the other tools.

jvb6806

11-26-2009, 09:47 AM

a block tester is basically a reverse turkey baster (happy thankgiving all!) that you fill with blue fluid. you put the end of it into your radiator and squeeze the ball at the top. it will pull the gas from inside your cooling system and filter it though the blue die. if the blue turns to yellow there is co2 in your coolant. the co2 is from your exhaust gas coming into cooling system. if the fluid turns green you sucked coolant up into it and you need to pull some fluid of the radiator, change the blue stuff and try again.

you can reuse the fluid after you are done if you want to. just suck clean air through the yellow fluid and it will turn blue again.

http://www.uview.com/Media/Products/Resized/560000-Medium

ryans88gt

11-26-2009, 06:02 PM

Waste of time. With those compression numbers, you better at least pull the head to check things out. You might have blown the gasket out from the detonation.

mk1vwguy

11-26-2009, 07:18 PM

Ill pick one up sat.

mk1vwguy

11-27-2009, 08:06 AM

ya i was just going to start taking apart and find out what im working with. I looked under it today and there is oil and water on ground so im thinking block or head cracked. Yay for me lol. o well least ill know what im working with and start from stock.

mk1vwguy

11-28-2009, 03:45 PM

well took motor apart and found out that the #2 piston is missing some pieces lol so looks like im looking for another motor. All 4 looked pretty dinged up but the head looked ok. Im going to take turbo apart and see if the pieces tore it up on way out or if dude knew about it and replaced head and turbo but left piston the way it was. God i got screwed lol. What would cause forged pistons to break apart? Running lean or what?

jvb6806

11-28-2009, 05:35 PM

that sucks dude.

good luck with the rebuild. and yeah my guess is detonation.

andersonpt85

11-28-2009, 10:04 PM

Kinda weird... t2.3's usually take 375-400 before you get forged piston pebbles. But then again...

Boost - fuel + spark adv. = piston pebbles/disconnecting rods.

Chefasaurus

11-29-2009, 04:20 AM

Kinda weird... t2.3's usually take 375-400 before you get forged piston pebbles. But then again...

Boost - fuel + spark adv. = piston pebbles/disconnecting rods.

It could have had cheap gas (87octane) in it, too.

mk1vwguy

11-29-2009, 04:23 AM

ya im going to see if my fuel pump is good and start stock and figured out whats went on. the cam and 15 psi should be ok for starters. Motor im buying is from a 88 thunderchicken so it will have the tiny ihi turbo. I was shocked when i seen that piston.

mk1vwguy

11-29-2009, 04:29 AM

It could have had cheap gas (87octane) in it, too.
Ya true. I wonder if the dude put a new head and turbo on after this happened? The head looks fine and im going to look at turbo tom but that chunk missin is huge. That turbo would be screwed if those pieces went threw it.

ryans88gt

11-29-2009, 05:38 PM

Ya true. I wonder if the dude put a new head and turbo on after this happened? The head looks fine and im going to look at turbo tom but that chunk missin is huge. That turbo would be screwed if those pieces went threw it.

Probably didn't make it through the exhaust, probably went into the oil pan.

mk1vwguy

11-29-2009, 08:31 PM

This is #2 piston on the XR.

http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp141/boostedranger/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG00043-20091129-2016.jpg

Chefasaurus

11-30-2009, 02:24 AM

http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/pts/1487596139.html

ryans88gt

11-30-2009, 01:07 PM

http://forums.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1168797

mk1vwguy

12-01-2009, 03:13 AM

I got ahold of the guy from chitowns CL. I took the pistons out and noticed the ring ripped out. What would cause that to happen. The block walls look fine tho. Here is my XR4TI on some cobra's!

http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp141/boostedranger/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG00044-20091129-2041.jpg

ryans88gt

12-01-2009, 11:02 AM

Broken ring land from too much fuel, too much timing, or detonation.

Usually caused from overheating the ring which causes it to expand until the two ends butt each other, this then causes excess drag on the wall of the cylinder until the ring land breaks.

May just have been not gapped for the amount of boost you were running also.